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codependence, independence, interdependence

August 4, 2010 by kathyescobar

the #1 word that i use at the refuge (other than nutty, messy, wild and beautiful) is relationship.  to me, when Jesus summed up the law and said it’s about loving God, others, ourselves that he was basically saying “it’s about relationship, people.”  it’s not about stuff or knowledge or words–it’s about love.  i also believe that love can be a very ethereal word that doesn’t sometimes translate down to practice.

if you’ve been reading here for a while you know that i believe that “the church*” is supposed to be the place to practice love not just talk about it.  not sit and learn about it.  not philosophize about it.  but really, really practice it.  and one thing i can say about our community is we may not have any bells and whistles or money or tricks, but we sure do have a lot of practicing going on. (*if you’re new to the carnival, my definition of church is: people gathered together in some way, shape or form to learn & practice the ways of Jesus & pass on love, hope, mercy, justice, and healing in a broken, weird world.)

right now at our wednesday night house of refuge we are walking through the 12 steps together (we did the same thing last summer, using some material that i wrote that makes the steps assessible to those in touch with their basic need to change some unhealthy patterns.  email me if you’re interested and i can send you the file).  so many think that the 12 steps are just for addicts or people in relationship with addicts. nothing could be farther from the truth; based on the beatitudes, they really are a practical guide to becoming more loving, grounded, honest, compassionate, kind, free human beings.  a word that often comes up in 12 step circles is “codependence.” many think that codependence is about really-messed-up-people-who-are-in-relationship-with-an-addict-or-in-an-abusive-relationship.  yeah, it goes far wider and deeper than that.  in a conversation a few weeks ago, we talked very briefly about the difference between “codependence “and “interdependence.”  the more i thought about it, the more i realized that “independence” should be thrown into the conversation, too.   as i’ve been reflecting on these 3 words i see how they apply not only to us individually in our every day relationships, but also in our relationship with God.  and because communities/churches are made up of people & develop a certain innate culture that they live from, they can also collectively embody these patterns, too.

so what’s the difference between codependence, independence, and interdependence when it comes to our relationship with God & others, both individually and corporately?

to me, codependence is essentially an unhealthy pattern of control, care-taking, enabling, people-pleasing, suppressing our own wants & desires for the sake of keeping the peace & our little world as we know it spinning around.  i believe codependence is a human condition and that most of us suffer from it in some shape or form; even those that appear very squared away and confident, often have very strong codependent characteristics underneath.  codependents tend to:

  • give but never allow themselves to receive
  • be out of touch with what they really want or need
  • be martyrs, peace-makers, victims, care-takers
  • act out of fear instead of freedom
  • live an “if i do or say this or that then God will be happy with me” kind of faith

independence is what i always call “the american way.”  it’s the i-don’t-really-need- anyone-else mentality.   i don’t really need close people in my life, i can handle things on my own, i’ve got it covered.  independence isn’t necessarily a bad thing in that it is good to be free and strong apart from other people; the problem is that typically it means that the person isn’t very engaged in the real stuff of other people’s lives.  underneath a lot of independence is fear.  independents tend to:

  • never really connect on an emotional level with other people
  • reject input
  • believe that things are “just fine the way they are”
  • think their way is right
  • not really need God much, have their own bases covered

honestly, i believe most people–most churches–tend to stay stuck in codependent or independent patterns, either being addicted to caretaking, people pleasing, holding-back-the-truth with God & others or standing apart, being strong and prideful, and not really allowing themselves to be engaged in real relationship with God or others.

i think Jesus call of love is to learn the ways of interdependence.  true interdependence means we rely on one another in a way that is not unhealthy or creates imbalanced power.

  • interdependence requires a vulnerability, a willingness not only to be transparent with how we are doing and feeling but also let others’ love, mercy, wisdom, and help into our lives.
  • interdependence is a letting go of self-protection to pursue connection.
  • interdependence is a freedom to be ourselves–with all of our uniqueness, strengths and weaknesses–and love others in all of theirs, too, without being compelled to change, reject, or avoid them.
  • interdependence is a solid awareness of our own need for grace and the ability to pass it on to others, too.
  • interdependence is a heart open to feel others pain but not let it suck the life and hope out of us.
  • interdependence requires a courage to risk money, time, and status to stand for justice on others behalf instead of stand by and watch others get taken advantage of.
  • interdependence is being willing to need other people and be needed at the same time.
  • interdependence is showing up in our relationship with God in an honest and real way instead of faking or avoiding.
  • interdependence is a life of spirit-infused sacrifice connected to other people instead of a life of narcissism.

i think it’s fairly easy to be codependent and independent people in our relationship with God and others. it’s some kind of weird crazy human default many of us seem to have.

i think it’s also fairly easy to be codependent and independent communities, either being overly concerned with approval & making everybody happy or thinking we’ve got it mastered & don’t need anyone else.

it’s much harder to be interdependent people (and churches)–the kind that paul talks about in 1 corinthians 12 where the parts of the body are all intertwined  together, doing what they are meant to do, forming a wholeness that they could never form alone.

for me, i know i often teeter between codependence and independence in my own life.  i have that typical adult-child-of-an-alcoholic-keep-the-peace-and-make-everyone-happy tendency and also the i-really-don’t-want-to-need-or-rely-on-anyone independence (honestly, i think independence is just a subset of codependence).

i need to keep remembering that real interdependence–which i believe are the ways of Jesus lived out together in relationship–are usually counterintuitive to so much of what i have been taught both in my personal-family-history-systems as well as my faith experiences. the codependent good girl initially helped me move up the christian ladder, and the independent-got-it-all-covered girl helped me survive in more ways than i can say.  but over the years, i have become more and more aware of how lonely & limiting & not-the-ways-of-Jesus this kind of living is.  it is prideful & self-centered & fearful & far from free.

codependence and independence are ways to control our world & avoid pain & failure instead of living the real, uninhibited, tangled up ways of the kingdom in true-blue interdependent relationship with people & God.

i am trying to risk my heart, my pride, so much of what i have known & engage in real, scary, unpredictable, beautiful, healing interdependent relationships with other men & women on the journey.

and i am hoping our community will learn how to be more interdependent in the wider body of Christ as well.

there’s no question, i/we have a lot to keep learning.

i love what jean vanier says in my all-time-favorite-book-on-inclusive-deep-and-healing-missional-community, community and growth:

“there is always a warfare in our hearts; there is always the struggle between pride and humility, hatred and love, forgiveness and the refusal to forgive, truth and the concealment of truth, openness and closedness. each of us is walking in that passage toward liberation, growing on the journey toward wholeness and healing.”

may we become more whole, interdependent people.

and may we cultivate more whole, interdependent communities.

God, please help us break free of codependence & independence and learn your ways of interdependence.

there’s so much more that could be said about these 3 patterns of doing relationship with other people & in our faith, but i’ll stop here for now.  as always, i’d love to hear some of your thoughts, perspectives & experiences on the differences between codependence, independence & interdependence.

Posted in church stuff, healing, incarnational, relationships, spiritual formation, the refuge | Tagged , , | 9 Comments »

meat lovers beware! our taste buds have been contaminated

July 30, 2010 by kathyescobar

i originally wrote this post for the refuge blog in october 2007.  when i was looking at a few old posts this week i stumbled across it and thought i’d repost it because most everyone here has never read it.  it’s almost 3 years later and even though i am rarely around people who ask for more meat, i hear it now and then when i intersect with people in passing.  they’ll declare, “oh, i really love this pastor because he really gives us meat!” and i always get in my car, chuckle a little bit, and think “um,  yeah, sorry, but that’s not what he’s giving you…”  enjoy.  as always, would love to hear your thoughts!

* * * * *

“i want some meat!”“i wish we could get more meat!”“we really need more meat!”

i know those of you who are struggling to buy groceries are thinking the same thing. but i’m talking about a different kind of meat that has nothing to do with grocery stores but everything to do with church. i have heard the cry for “meat” within the church ever since i became a true-blue evangelical church-going christian. when i entered into a season of spiritual and emotional healing about 14 years ago I remember demanding it myself. things started getting a little intense in my women’s group (people were really sharing honestly from their heart, not holding back, going the distance instead of faking it) and i told my group leader “i really wish we used the Bible more in here, i really want more meat! i really want to grow…” (i am now of course so embarrassed that I said this & after having seen the light a few years later confessed to her for not recognizing then that what we were doing in that little group was far more than just some stupid slab of spiritual meat—it was actually the whole cow!). but i was not alone in this kind of thinking. i hear it all the time, although now it is like nails on a chalkboard to me, maybe even like all of my children’s nails on a chalkboard all at once. and as you all know that is a lot of fingernails!

here’s what i think people mean by “meat.”

1. “Bible knowledge” – as in scripture verses and telling us exactly what they are supposed to mean. the more the better. a little bit of hebrew or greek translation adds the perfect spice.

2. “teaching” – teachers telling people what they think they need to learn or know in a very specific clear way so that we feel like we got a “lesson”, something motivating.

3. “certainty” – these are the facts and we are 100% certain that’s what this means and on top of that we are certain this is what you are supposed to do with this knowledge, too.

4. “a touch of shame” – some kind of moment that gets created when you think “now I’ll try harder….I need to be more godly…I am convicted and now this week I will get rid of that sin for good.”

while none of those things are inherently “wrong” what gets to me about all of them is they are sort of irrelevant to the gospel of Jesus. in fact, he said over and over to the religious leaders who had these 4 things mastered up and down, backwards & forwards, “ummm, guys, you are missing the point. here’s all that you need to do—be like me.” he didn’t say “go to a room, feed your belly with knowledge, get inspired and go home feeling spiritually fat.” he said, “hang out with the outcasts, the losers, the nonreligious, the prostitutues, the sick (oh, and by the way, that means you), get in touch with your brokenness & need for me and practice the way of self-sacrifice, generosity of spirit, humility and love. yes, my friends, this is what will change the world.”

i love the Bible. i think scripture can be transforming. but i also believe we have dismissed that true spiritual maturity is a life of serving others in tangible ways, humbling ourselves to the lowest place, giving up our comfort, money, time, pride for the sake of others. remember, the word of God became flesh, and that is what He did.

i think when we are honest what we really want is to be spoonfed spiritual milk and are terrified of true, tasty, Jesus steaks. most of the people i have been around through the years who demand “meat” are great, sincere believers. but usually their expressed desire for “meat” is actually them running for the safety of others who are more socially acceptable and sound more godly.

you see, the church has contaminated our taste buds. we have been taught to think that “spiritual” must include Bible knowledge, certainty, teaching, a touch of shame (and healing that looks like good behavior) so we keep seeking after it, church after church, Bible study after Bible study. but honestly, what it seems like to me is that people keep learning but never really apply much. we’re lonely but we never connect. we keep slipping in and out of services but never engage with a hurting person beyond “hi, nice to meet you.” we keep going to Bible studies & church meetings & services & prayer times hoping we’ll become more like Jesus and end up insulating ourselves more and more from the very places Jesus always was hanging out.

so here’s my soapbox mantra for the past 5 years or so, everytime I hear someone demand “meat”….“okay, no problem, look around. i see freezer after freezer full of it.”

reach out to someone in need no matter how messy it seems. help the poor. sacrifice your time and money. restore a broken relationship. love the outcast, especially the person that bugs the hell out of you. spend the time you waste watching TV investing in a person, no matter how young or old. stop nagging your spouse and change your behavior. serve someone else. open your home to others. force yourself to do something uncomfortable. get your head around the reality that you’re just as messed up as ‘those people’. humble yourself and let another person into your life. stay in a friendship for the long haul instead of running away.

and here’s what i believe usually happens next—never directly, always subtly—“nah, that kind of meat, i can do without. when does the next Bible study start?”

our taste buds have been contaminated. Jesus’ ways sometimes don’t initially taste too good going down. but for me, i have to say, nothing’s better than the aftertaste– the quiet moments when I notice where God’s spirit worked, what He is teaching me about me, life, humanity in the midst, and the beauty in the ugliness.

i know a lot of people think that at the refuge we are drinking milk. it sure tastes like steak to me.

Posted in church stuff, crazy making, fundamentalism, rants | 8 Comments »

loss.

July 27, 2010 by kathyescobar

“every time there are losses there are choices to make. you choose to live your losses as passages to anger, blame, hatred, depression, and resentment, or you choose to let these losses be passages to something new, something wider, something deeper…”

- henri nouwen

* * * * *

i came across this nouwen passage this past week & it touched my heart in a good and deep way, and i thought in light of the last 3 church refugee videos that i would focus just a little on this issue of loss and change. one of the things that is hard about blogging (or 10 minute video conversations) is that you can never fully flesh out each and every one of these ideas.  it also sort of bugs me that in many christian circles there is a weird expectation that in every sentence, every paragraph, every “moment” there are certain words expressed that somehow tie it up and make it cleaner, easier.  i wrote about this a long time ago in the first year of the refuge in a post called “get over it.” some of the ideas i shared way back then came back to me this week–how certain words, hopefulness, or a good-and-clear-happy-ending makes us feel so much better.  an example of this is when i say “i am angry about this injustice” it’s hard for some people to hear.  but if i say “i used to be really angry but God did a work in me and now i have so much peace” then we smile and nod and feel so much better.  i think it’s because many of us, on the whole, have a hard time with raw emotion and honesty.  and we also have a hard time with loss and grief.  i don’t think that struggle is exclusive those who are or have been part of “the church” but i do think for those engrained with churchianity it is sometimes harder because so little has been taught about what it means to live really authentically, be strongly connected & able to express what’s going on inside of us, and the art of lament and waiting.

one of the things i love most about the psalms is that so many are cries of the heart about loss, change, fear, and anger.  but over and over the psalmists draw back on the peace and hope of God in the midst.  and as we all know, some of them are more hopeful than others.

most all the people i know have experienced deep loss at this stage of their lives–loss of relationships, dreams, innocence, marriages, ministries, churches, health, jobs, people, and just about everything in between.  the healthiest ones i know are those who are able to be honest about their loss and let their losses lead them to new places in their journey with God, others, and themselves. but at the same time, most all of us who have lost much will express that there were funky waves and seasons where anger, despair, confusion, and depression somehow set in along the way.  it wasn’t all roses and sunshine, that’s for sure.  it is a process, and like most emotion-human-real-stuff-of-people’s-lives, the journey is not linear.  there are ups and downs and all arounds along the way.  but, if we hang on, strap in, have safe places to share and good-fellow-sojourners-to-carry-some-of-our-load-here-and-there-while-we-are-crying-out-to-God-and-others-sometimes-without-words we can find a new place to live. the scars still remain.  we all have our war wounds.  but our losses can lead us to new places, as nouwen says, places that are wider and deeper.

today i find myself really sad about all that i’ve lost when it comes to the-church-system-i-originally-came-from.  oh, how some days i wish i could just play the game and go with the flow.  $!*!&^$^!(,  it would be easier in so many ways.  but i know that this nutty, scary path that God has me on is the one that i must continue to follow.  some criticize that orthopraxy without orthodoxy is not right, and that somehow being clear about “belief” is always necessary.  i really resonate with what brennan manning says somewhere in one of his books–”if you want to know what a person believes, watch what they do.”

i may have many “i don’t knows” in my faith, but i am more clear on Jesus than i ever have been when it comes to what he calls his followers to do (i’m not saying i always do it or have any of this stuff nailed down, but i am personally more and more convicted about what that really looks like, and yes, it’s uncomfortable, hard, and oh-so-counter-to-the-world-and-most-systems-and-not-only-the-religious-ones).   i am also acutely aware that the Holy Spirit is alive and well, moving, changing, stirring, leading, shifting, calling people to hard and beautiful things in the midst of all kinds of crazy losses.

i do not want to be a person who lets the losses i have experienced–and am experiencing–keep me stuck in anger, depression, blame and resentment, but it’s okay to say “this is is how i am feeling, this is where i am at, this is what i’m wrestling with.”  it does not make us bad, unfaithful, or losers.  but at the same time, i want to be a person who allows the losses in my life to be glorious, unfamiliar, wild, and beautiful passages to new, wider, and deeper places.

and i hope the same for each of you. i am thankful for your voice here, that you take time to read, that you are trying to live despite all the weird unexpected twists and turns your life may have taken, that you care deeply about people, that you are seeking God, that your heart is stirred to live out the gospels in all kinds of wild and amazing ways, that you are willing to be honest about your losses and be open to hope & wider, deeper places.

Posted in church stuff, healing, spiritual formation | Tagged | 4 Comments »

church refugees part 3 – “spiritual practices”

July 22, 2010 by kathyescobar

last one!  phyllis and i had fun sitting at my kitchen counter yacking away about a topic that unfortunately we know far too much about–church refugees.  good, amazing people who for all kinds of reasons have “left” church.  if you are just now reading, check out part 1 and part 2.  i know there are some who might say “why are you promoting church leave-ers” and there are many others who would say “aren’t we over this conversation yet?” and my response is “um, there are lots and lots of folks who are floating-around-out-here-in-la-la-land-and-lost-all-they-once-knew and you might be over it, but they’re not.  they’re gasping for breath, trying to find their way. so whether you understand it or not, it’s real.”

i believe God is far bigger than the institutions and boxes we humans try to put God in.  and i believe God speaks in all kinds of ways far beyond christian small groups & sermons & worship music & the Bible-according-to-the-one-sure-interpretation.   and i also believe that when people are displaced out of all they once knew, sometimes connecting with God, opening hearts up to God, experiencing God is far from easy and free.  it takes practice to break beyond the confines of past spiritual experiences & expectations & all kinds of language & baggage that go along with it.  in this last video phyllis fleshes out some ideas of spiritual practices that can help church refugees open up to new possible ways of connecting with God & themselves in new, unfamiliar ways.

if you are a church refugee, what are some other spiritual practices that have helped you along the way? please share so that others can glean from your experience, too.

Posted in healing, spiritual formation, video convos | Tagged | 19 Comments »

church refugees part 2: “life outside the bubble” – a video conversation

July 19, 2010 by kathyescobar

this is the second part of a 3-part-conversation i had with my friend phyllis mathis, who is a therapist-life-coach-church-refugee.  if you haven’t watched the first video, check it out here.  i really appreciated the comments & especially loved this quote about the real church attributed to tullian tchividjian (thanks sam & doug):  “if we’re the church then we’ll attract the same kinds of people that Jesus attracted.” most people i know didn’t leave church because it was attracting the desperate, marginalized, oppressed, sick, lonely, and outcast.  most people i know left because it wasn’t.

when thinking about church refugees, i thought it was interesting that the definition of a refugee is:  “one who flees in search of refuge, as in times of war, political oppression, or religious persecution.”  church refugees are somehow displaced out of the system for all kinds of reasons–disillusionment with God, hurt by leadership/system, just-can’t-do-the-grind-anymore-and-long-for-something-different and a whole slew of other things. one of the problems, though, is there aren’t that many refugee camps–safe places–for church refugees. this video fleshes out a little bit more about “life outside the bubble” and the importance of respecting the wide range of emotions and fallout of making these shifts.

i’d love to hear some of your thoughts.

ps: coming up in a few days–church refugees, part 3: spiritual practices

Posted in church stuff, healing, video convos | Tagged | 10 Comments »

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