from frank pontillo:

“Jesus is God and became flesh and dwelt among us. He is the same God that gave us the Old Testament, the same God that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. It is crazy to think He approves of homosexuality considering what He did to Sodom. Jesus speaks of the church and He put the apostles in charge of the church. If we do not believe the writings of Paul or the apostles then how do we know what the church should be like. We cannot just pick and choose. If a person has truly been born again then he will want to be part of Christs church as described in the New Testament and he will find it a delight. The fact the man in this video does not like to go to church read his bible or pray is because he is not saved and has never been saved. Once a pperson is born again he becomes a new Creation in Christ. He assumes a new nature. To say someone was a Christian but now is not is like saying the butterfly used to be a caterpillar and decided not to be a butterfly and became a caterpillar again. Its impossible. The fellow was a false professor. Jesus spoke about them in the parable of the sower.

He is wrong to say it does not matter what someone believes. That is the most important part of Christianity. Only when we believe Jesus is Lord and Savior will we be born again and able to discern what scripture and the Holy Spirit are saying.

I urge the fellow to repent of his sins and come to Christ before he wakes up in hell.”

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I shan’t stay long, except to thank you for sharing. John spoke a lot about what he no longer believes, or finds affinity in with Christianity (sin, redemption etc). I’d be interested to hear now some snapshots of what he *does* believe.

I struggle with the label ‘Christian’, but perhaps on different levels. The ‘C’ word, I believe, has suffered far too much abuse to be redeemed to any state of positive meaning. In my experience (on the other side of the world to you), people who hear ‘Christian’ don’t think – “Hey, you’d be a good friend, or great person to get to know”… instead they think, “There’s a judgmental, close-minded, sexually repressed person who’ll look down on me and see me as a project/prospect and desert me if I don’t meet their expectations for joining the club”…

Another issue for me (which I wonder if John shares?) is not whether I label myself ‘Christian’, but whether Christians would still be willing for me to be labelled ‘Christian’ when I no longer share belief in some of the fundamentals of Christianity (as it is today). I’m a heretic on key issues of salvation and destination, as well as some other major points, so I have to ask if it’s fair to call myself ‘Christian’ when my orthodoxy is so generous ‘they’ would disown me…?

Cheers .

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amos & colin – thank you for letting us listen in on your conversation. i am glad it wrapped up because i do think at some point it just circles around, but i appreciate your passion.

anonymous – thank you for sharing what you were thinking.

jean – thanks for taking time to share & i think you hit on what so many others feel and wrestle with. the ways of Jesus are freaking hard. it is scary and so counter-cultural, counter-intuitive. i love john’s statement there, too, about if people saw us would they go “oh, so that’s what Jesus looks like?” i don’t think Jesus wants us to feel shame in all the ways that we don’t live it out like we wish, but i do think that the challenge is presented to us & that on the whole, we’d much rather talk about the big ideas, theological differences, what we believe, and all kinds of other surface-y issues that distract us from what’s really the point–living it.
thanks for adding your thoughts to the discussion!

cynthia – oh i agree with julie, love your thoughts & what you added. i love this line, especially: “We live in a complex world – we need not only radical revolutionary thinking but radical revolutionary communities and doing.” i so agree. the world is crying out & we’re wrestling with doctrinal statements. nutty. sending lots of love to you from colorado & glad that you’re part of the conversation here.

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Beautiful!

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I love Frank Violas decsription of a “revolutionary” in Pagan Christianity and “identify” with and try to live out that description more than any other.
Although challenging and adventurous -pursuing action vs thinking and revolutionary kinds of “lifestyles”are high risk, not safe and require great trust of God.

We live in a complex world – we need not only radical revolutionary thinking but radical revolutionary communities and doing.

Coming to Christ shouldn’t mean giving up one set of baggage in exchange for another set of baggage to carry – but often it does. people tend to spend alot of time sorting through the baggage trying to figure out what to wear, what they should wear to fit in, or what suits them. The most meaningful answers come when you are truly following Christ and engaged with various types of opportunities and challenges.

Why do we need brands to align ourselves with/ and why do we need Christian identities anyway? I wonder about that alot. Why can’t we be true to our own DNA what we’ve been created to do in honor of our Creator? We are each unique and our respective communities are also unique. We seem to be asking the wrong questions – what should we be doing vs what should we be thinking and how should we be appearing before God, communicating and representing God as ambassadors to others outside Christian community as well as loving those inside.

Most of things we feel ashamed or embarrassed about come from how christians often unknowingly, because they are growing, treat others in unchrist like ways that can tend to alienate -as well as the negative PR that’s been created. Even if the good stories proliferated – only the bad examples get press. How do we change that? Bible states that the world will hate you and love not the world – how does that fit in? I struggle w am I reaching out or compromising by working w and hanging w non believers. Other times I feel really secure in my faith and can relate to anyone. Often find that this very conversation and being honest will open people up to accept you as a christian and open dialog about your faith – if that makes sense.

maybe instead of saying you are a Christian you could just say I am forgiven – how can I extend that grace to my brother and sister, to those who hurt and offend me – to those I don’t understand or agree with and to the world.

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I think my favorite part was when John said – (to paraphrase) “can someone else see Jesus in you by what you’re doing”? Once, a long time ago, i read the gospel of Matthew and decided I would do all that Jesus said – man – I gotta confess – I was saddened by my inactions and then I stopped reading – cuz it was really hard and I felt so guilty and un-Jesus like.

jean

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Thanks for your response to my post. The scripture passages you wrote and your words of encouragement mean a lot to me.

I am glad to be on this journey with others who can appreciate the struggle and the need to press on.

Julie

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Thanks for the kind rebuke.

I’m exhausted also.

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