Comments on: the up-and-down-sides of inclusion http://kathyescobar.com/2009/11/23/the-up-and-down-sides-of-inclusion/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=the-up-and-down-sides-of-inclusion Mon, 06 Feb 2012 07:25:26 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Sam http://kathyescobar.com/2009/11/23/the-up-and-down-sides-of-inclusion/#comment-3036 Sam Mon, 30 Nov 2009 18:44:14 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2502#comment-3036 Kathy - You have the rare ability to see what people are really saying. That leads me to suspect that you can do this in person. That is a real gift! I once knew a man who said he met an angel, who came to him when he was in trouble. The angel looked like a regular person. The story is too long to retell here, except for a few points: -Other people saw the angel (who looked like a man) -The angel accomplished what appeared to fall beyond physical laws -The angel literally vanished in a matter of about two seconds when everyone else turned around. This was in open country, with not even a bush anywhere near. Is it possible that angels come not only to help us, but to prepare us for the real, not-so-pretty people we will later encounter? Might it be that we should help/befriend unlovely people, not because we think they might be angels, but because that is what Jesus and His angels are trying to teach us to do? Isn't this sort of like the story of the man who moved the big rock that was in the middle of the road to assist his fellow travelers? He moved it because he wanted to help others. Little did he know that the king had placed it there, and had placed a treasure beneath it that the person who moved it would find. Might our King have done a similar thing? Might what we think is a difficult thing to do (love the unlovely) really be an opportunity with a rich reward hidden beneath - the Kingdom of God? Perhaps those angels, real or imagined, are trying to give us a little nudge in the right direction. I wonder if I too have encountered angels, disguised as people who needed me, then and there, and almost always at the most inconvenient of times for me - when I was busy, tired and just tired of helping others. Could it be that the most unlovely people I have met were....? Kathy – You have the rare ability to see what people are really saying. That leads me to suspect that you can do this in person. That is a real gift!

I once knew a man who said he met an angel, who came to him when he was in trouble. The angel looked like a regular person. The story is too long to retell here, except for a few points:
-Other people saw the angel (who looked like a man)
-The angel accomplished what appeared to fall beyond physical laws
-The angel literally vanished in a matter of about two seconds when everyone else turned around. This was in open country, with not even a bush anywhere near.

Is it possible that angels come not only to help us, but to prepare us for the real, not-so-pretty people we will later encounter? Might it be that we should help/befriend unlovely people, not because we think they might be angels, but because that is what Jesus and His angels are trying to teach us to do?

Isn’t this sort of like the story of the man who moved the big rock that was in the middle of the road to assist his fellow travelers? He moved it because he wanted to help others. Little did he know that the king had placed it there, and had placed a treasure beneath it that the person who moved it would find.

Might our King have done a similar thing? Might what we think is a difficult thing to do (love the unlovely) really be an opportunity with a rich reward hidden beneath – the Kingdom of God? Perhaps those angels, real or imagined, are trying to give us a little nudge in the right direction.

I wonder if I too have encountered angels, disguised as people who needed me, then and there, and almost always at the most inconvenient of times for me – when I was busy, tired and just tired of helping others. Could it be that the most unlovely people I have met were….?

]]> By: kathyescobar http://kathyescobar.com/2009/11/23/the-up-and-down-sides-of-inclusion/#comment-3034 kathyescobar Mon, 30 Nov 2009 14:22:55 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2502#comment-3034 hope everyone had a good thanksgiving! i am just now getting to this, but always appreciate the different input and perspectives. <strong>sage</strong> - i forgot that little quote from the eve! i agree with what you are saying related to Jesus seeming to be pretty clear in the gospels that the way of the law & the confines of religion wasn't where it was at. i totally get joel's valid question & that is what sometimes is confusing. where i like to land is that it does seem that many of the things that "religious systems" do not-in-any-sense-of-the-word align with a lot of Jesus' teachings. it just doesn't make sense. yet, it does to them, i suppose, and that's why i'm sometimes not crazy about using scripture to make a specific point because there are so many contrary views on the same passage or other scriptures seem contradict it in some other way (i'm just talking generally here). the spirit of Jesus' message is what i'd cling to here, that the willing & open & poor in spirit & seekers were somehow always welcome & embraced, touched, loved, not excluded by Jesus. <strong>randi</strong> - glad you liked the image...i am glad that i resigned my position a long time ago, but boy did i used to take that job seriously! <strong>donna</strong> - welcome to the club :) i do love the sacredness of communion, too. it doesn't have to be solemn and ceremonial or ? for me to feel its sacredness, i just always love the act, the intention, the reminder. i have taken communion before in a catholic church and pretty much just ignored the preamble, but for some reason this time i felt like it was important to honor his clear words. not sure why, but i think each of these weird moments helps me in my faith journey somehow. i like the challenge, too, and what it stirs up. love ya! <strong>joel</strong> - i always love the devil's advocate perspective and i am so glad you tossed it in there. i always want to be careful about "right" or "wrong" because of course there are so many ways that people experience God and i don't want to be one of those people who say it's my way or the highway. the one thing that i will cling to, though, is that the "religiosity" of exclusion is very contrary to Jesus' teachings. i think i will hold to that. over and over and over Jesus' main teachings were to the pharisees, the "law"-enforcers. and he usually didn't use the kindest of words. he was very strong in his communication about desiring mercy not sacrifice, that he came for the sick not the healthy, that the law of love superseded the law of right behavior. none of us ultimately "100% know" anything, i have long since given up that thought even though for a long time i was sure i did! i think it's more honest to say that everyone's just giving it their best shot. thanks for your thoughts, so much more we could talk about! <strong>sam</strong> - oh i hope one day we get to have a real conversation. this is the story of my life, even within my own family who get frustrated with me/us for our inclusiveness. and i am so with you, true inclusion goes far beyond "come in" and "take communion." real love, real friendship, real inclusion is a whole other story. sometimes i leave certain moments when we are mixing up all kinds of beautiful nuttiness in one room and say to myself "i think this is what Jesus meant when he said small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life..." and it's not all about heaven. it's about here, now. and it's not for the fainthearted. it will come through great sacrifice and discomfort. it will require losing friends & family & being misunderstood. thanks for sharing. <strong>carlos</strong> - oh i always love your heart. you said: "I don’t think humans have the power to exclude me from the Bride of Christ…." no, they shouldn't. they don't. don't let them. it is free & open & available in all different shapes & forms and that's what i love about it, really it can't be kept down, no matter how hard "man" tries to... <strong>irene</strong> - so glad you were there and are part of the nuttiness, the beauty. <strong>jim </strong>- oh that story made me smile. i love that contrast & the power of the open table during lent. i completely agree with you, those Jesus stories seem to be pointing to something quite different from exclusion...hope i get to hang out with you all next sunday! watching the flights... <strong>mark</strong> - preach it brother! amen! hope everyone had a good thanksgiving! i am just now getting to this, but always appreciate the different input and perspectives.

sage – i forgot that little quote from the eve! i agree with what you are saying related to Jesus seeming to be pretty clear in the gospels that the way of the law & the confines of religion wasn’t where it was at. i totally get joel’s valid question & that is what sometimes is confusing. where i like to land is that it does seem that many of the things that “religious systems” do not-in-any-sense-of-the-word align with a lot of Jesus’ teachings. it just doesn’t make sense. yet, it does to them, i suppose, and that’s why i’m sometimes not crazy about using scripture to make a specific point because there are so many contrary views on the same passage or other scriptures seem contradict it in some other way (i’m just talking generally here). the spirit of Jesus’ message is what i’d cling to here, that the willing & open & poor in spirit & seekers were somehow always welcome & embraced, touched, loved, not excluded by Jesus.

randi – glad you liked the image…i am glad that i resigned my position a long time ago, but boy did i used to take that job seriously!

donna – welcome to the club :) i do love the sacredness of communion, too. it doesn’t have to be solemn and ceremonial or ? for me to feel its sacredness, i just always love the act, the intention, the reminder. i have taken communion before in a catholic church and pretty much just ignored the preamble, but for some reason this time i felt like it was important to honor his clear words. not sure why, but i think each of these weird moments helps me in my faith journey somehow. i like the challenge, too, and what it stirs up. love ya!

joel – i always love the devil’s advocate perspective and i am so glad you tossed it in there. i always want to be careful about “right” or “wrong” because of course there are so many ways that people experience God and i don’t want to be one of those people who say it’s my way or the highway. the one thing that i will cling to, though, is that the “religiosity” of exclusion is very contrary to Jesus’ teachings. i think i will hold to that. over and over and over Jesus’ main teachings were to the pharisees, the “law”-enforcers. and he usually didn’t use the kindest of words. he was very strong in his communication about desiring mercy not sacrifice, that he came for the sick not the healthy, that the law of love superseded the law of right behavior. none of us ultimately “100% know” anything, i have long since given up that thought even though for a long time i was sure i did! i think it’s more honest to say that everyone’s just giving it their best shot. thanks for your thoughts, so much more we could talk about!

sam – oh i hope one day we get to have a real conversation. this is the story of my life, even within my own family who get frustrated with me/us for our inclusiveness. and i am so with you, true inclusion goes far beyond “come in” and “take communion.” real love, real friendship, real inclusion is a whole other story. sometimes i leave certain moments when we are mixing up all kinds of beautiful nuttiness in one room and say to myself “i think this is what Jesus meant when he said small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life…” and it’s not all about heaven. it’s about here, now. and it’s not for the fainthearted. it will come through great sacrifice and discomfort. it will require losing friends & family & being misunderstood. thanks for sharing.

carlos – oh i always love your heart. you said: “I don’t think humans have the power to exclude me from the Bride of Christ….” no, they shouldn’t. they don’t. don’t let them. it is free & open & available in all different shapes & forms and that’s what i love about it, really it can’t be kept down, no matter how hard “man” tries to…

irene – so glad you were there and are part of the nuttiness, the beauty.

jim - oh that story made me smile. i love that contrast & the power of the open table during lent. i completely agree with you, those Jesus stories seem to be pointing to something quite different from exclusion…hope i get to hang out with you all next sunday! watching the flights…

mark – preach it brother! amen!

]]> By: Mark R http://kathyescobar.com/2009/11/23/the-up-and-down-sides-of-inclusion/#comment-3032 Mark R Sat, 28 Nov 2009 09:30:13 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2502#comment-3032 Communion the most segregated hour in Australia, to paraphrase ML King ... all you of like mind gather round and partake in the thimble and have a little piece of cracker. "If you enter your place of worship and, about to make an offering, you suddenly remember a grudge a friend has against you, abandon your offering, leave immediately, go to this friend and make things right. Then and only then, come back and work things out with God. " One of the reasons Jesus gave his life was to form “one new humanity” in which all racial, gender, cultural and class walls have been torn down Eph. 2:14-15; Gal. 3:26-29. Racial, cultural, gender and class reconciliation isn’t some sort of “politically correct” addendum to the Gospel: its part of its very essence! If Jesus died to create “one new humanity,” then manifesting a community in which people of different ethnicities are learning to love, understand and do life with one another is as mandatory for the church as is preaching the forgiveness of sins, which Jesus also died for. Communion the most segregated hour in Australia, to paraphrase ML King … all you of like mind gather round and partake in the thimble and have a little piece of cracker.

“If you enter your place of worship and, about to make an offering, you suddenly remember a grudge a friend has against you, abandon your offering, leave immediately, go to this friend and make things right. Then and only then, come back and work things out with God. ”

One of the reasons Jesus gave his life was to form “one new humanity” in which all racial, gender, cultural and class walls have been torn down Eph. 2:14-15; Gal. 3:26-29. Racial, cultural, gender and class reconciliation isn’t some sort of “politically correct” addendum to the Gospel: its part of its very essence! If Jesus died to create “one new humanity,” then manifesting a community in which people of different ethnicities are learning to love, understand and do life with one another is as mandatory for the church as is preaching the forgiveness of sins, which Jesus also died for.

]]> By: Sage H. http://kathyescobar.com/2009/11/23/the-up-and-down-sides-of-inclusion/#comment-3031 Sage H. Sat, 28 Nov 2009 07:38:54 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2502#comment-3031 No Joel, that is not what I am saying. . Also, I do not understand what point you are trying to make. No Joel, that is not what I am saying.
.
Also, I do not understand what point you are trying to make.

]]> By: Jim http://kathyescobar.com/2009/11/23/the-up-and-down-sides-of-inclusion/#comment-3030 Jim Fri, 27 Nov 2009 23:14:14 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2502#comment-3030 Joel, you are right...people have said that they have it right and others wrong since time began. And, I am pretty certain God has never been who I want him to be (either today, or in the past). I am struggling to know him, and I always very doubtful of how much I do know him. There are many things about the Catholic Church I still love and respect very much. And, I know many Catholics who would agree that there are many things the Catholic Church has gotten wrong throughout the centuries. I am not saying they have it wrong and I know what is right. However, I am still wondering, why did Jesus include the people he included? If his mission was all about making sure people had it exactly right, wouldn't he have praised the Pharisees and condemned the tax collectors and the prostetutes? Based on the teaching and example of Jesus, I'm not sure I understand how exclusive God is. I like your last sentence "BUT also that maybe being a member of an inclusive community is more important than pleasing an exclusive God." I think I am agreeing with you, but I'm just hoping God is more inclusive than exclusive. And, I could be quite wrong. Joel, you are right…people have said that they have it right and others wrong since time began. And, I am pretty certain God has never been who I want him to be (either today, or in the past). I am struggling to know him, and I always very doubtful of how much I do know him.
There are many things about the Catholic Church I still love and respect very much. And, I know many Catholics who would agree that there are many things the Catholic Church has gotten wrong throughout the centuries. I am not saying they have it wrong and I know what is right.
However, I am still wondering, why did Jesus include the people he included? If his mission was all about making sure people had it exactly right, wouldn’t he have praised the Pharisees and condemned the tax collectors and the prostetutes? Based on the teaching and example of Jesus, I’m not sure I understand how exclusive God is.
I like your last sentence “BUT also that maybe being a member of an inclusive community is more important than pleasing an exclusive God.” I think I am agreeing with you, but I’m just hoping God is more inclusive than exclusive. And, I could be quite wrong.

]]> By: Joel Bass http://kathyescobar.com/2009/11/23/the-up-and-down-sides-of-inclusion/#comment-3029 Joel Bass Fri, 27 Nov 2009 21:36:43 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2502#comment-3029 So, Jim and Sage, are we saying we think Catholics have it wrong, and are going against what Jesus clearly says in the Bible? It sounds like Sage is very sure about what the Bible has to say about exclusivity -- does this mean we should phone the Pope and let him know that all their centuries of Bible interpretation have been mistaken? It's easy to say that others are wrong, and we're the ones who really know what God wants--heck, people in every belief system have said that since time began! But my point is that there's a chance God isn't who you want him to be. BUT also that maybe being a member of an inclusive community is more important than pleasing an exclusive God. So, Jim and Sage, are we saying we think Catholics have it wrong, and are going against what Jesus clearly says in the Bible? It sounds like Sage is very sure about what the Bible has to say about exclusivity — does this mean we should phone the Pope and let him know that all their centuries of Bible interpretation have been mistaken?

It’s easy to say that others are wrong, and we’re the ones who really know what God wants–heck, people in every belief system have said that since time began! But my point is that there’s a chance God isn’t who you want him to be. BUT also that maybe being a member of an inclusive community is more important than pleasing an exclusive God.

]]> By: Jim http://kathyescobar.com/2009/11/23/the-up-and-down-sides-of-inclusion/#comment-3027 Jim Thu, 26 Nov 2009 17:53:32 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2502#comment-3027 Interestingly, not long ago, a recent convert to Catholicism was trying to explain to me why Catholic Communion is exclusive. And, the funny thing is, I grew up in a VERY Catholic home. I was an alter boy, my family servered (and my parents still do) in that church in many ways. I was trying to listen w/o being judgemental or responding negatively, after all he was so excited about his new beliefs. However, inside I was just kind of shaking my head wondering is that how God really feels about me right now? Last Christmas we went to Mass w/my parents and everything was fine and comfortable until we got to that point. Amazingly, one of my daughters started choking just as Comminion started. She was fine, and just needed a drink of water, but it gave me an escape from that moment of feeling judgement that I was so grateful for. During Lent last year, I went (by myself) to an Episcopal Church near our house. When communion came, they said everyone was invited and we went forward, kneeled at the front and received it (elements where much like Catholic Mass). I was so overwelmed by that moment of being able to share it openly with this faith community. If God doesn't have his arms open wide for all of us to join in, why did Jesus share communion with the one who turned him over to die? Why did Jesus include the tax collectors and the prostitutes? Including everyone is difficult and messy (and some may be turned off by those included), but isn't that what the Kingdom of God Jesus showed us is really like? Interestingly, not long ago, a recent convert to Catholicism was trying to explain to me why Catholic Communion is exclusive. And, the funny thing is, I grew up in a VERY Catholic home. I was an alter boy, my family servered (and my parents still do) in that church in many ways. I was trying to listen w/o being judgemental or responding negatively, after all he was so excited about his new beliefs. However, inside I was just kind of shaking my head wondering is that how God really feels about me right now?
Last Christmas we went to Mass w/my parents and everything was fine and comfortable until we got to that point. Amazingly, one of my daughters started choking just as Comminion started. She was fine, and just needed a drink of water, but it gave me an escape from that moment of feeling judgement that I was so grateful for.
During Lent last year, I went (by myself) to an Episcopal Church near our house. When communion came, they said everyone was invited and we went forward, kneeled at the front and received it (elements where much like Catholic Mass). I was so overwelmed by that moment of being able to share it openly with this faith community.
If God doesn’t have his arms open wide for all of us to join in, why did Jesus share communion with the one who turned him over to die? Why did Jesus include the tax collectors and the prostitutes? Including everyone is difficult and messy (and some may be turned off by those included), but isn’t that what the Kingdom of God Jesus showed us is really like?

]]> By: Sage H. http://kathyescobar.com/2009/11/23/the-up-and-down-sides-of-inclusion/#comment-3025 Sage H. Thu, 26 Nov 2009 15:38:59 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2502#comment-3025 Hi Joel, you wrote- "What if that Priest has it exactly right? What if God demands that everyone follows a certain set of rules, ceremonies, and procedures, handed down through the One True Church" . The account of Jesus in Matthew 5:17 is as clear an answer as you can get (of teachings carried in paradox). Jesus addressed this very issue. Jesus does not diss the law, but radically expands "the law" inward into the heart and outward into action, Filling it with the holy spirit. His point is that we live the spirit of the law instead of being obsessed with just the technical details of it. For me, that makes your question and the others that follow from it a moot point. Happy thanksgiving! Hi Joel, you wrote-
“What if that Priest has it exactly right? What if God demands that everyone follows a certain set of rules, ceremonies, and procedures, handed down through the One True Church”
.
The account of Jesus in Matthew 5:17 is as clear an answer as you can get (of teachings carried in paradox). Jesus addressed this very issue. Jesus does not diss the law, but radically expands “the law” inward into the heart and outward into action, Filling it with the holy spirit. His point is that we live the spirit of the law instead of being obsessed with just the technical details of it.
For me, that makes your question and the others that follow from it a moot point.
Happy thanksgiving!

]]> By: irene http://kathyescobar.com/2009/11/23/the-up-and-down-sides-of-inclusion/#comment-3024 irene Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:18:03 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2502#comment-3024 Thanks so much Kathy. Wednesday night was a great reminder of the sacredness of communion. "And he took bread and gave thanks and broke it and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you, do this in rememberance of me. Likewise he took the cup, saying, This cup is the new life in my blood, which is shed for you" Luke 22: 19-20 Thanks so much Kathy. Wednesday night was a great reminder of the sacredness of communion.

“And he took bread and gave thanks and broke it and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you, do this in rememberance of me. Likewise he took the cup, saying, This cup is the new life in my blood, which is shed for you” Luke 22: 19-20

]]> By: Carlos http://kathyescobar.com/2009/11/23/the-up-and-down-sides-of-inclusion/#comment-3022 Carlos Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:51:15 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2502#comment-3022 Kathy, As always, my heart resonates with yours...I've been a so called "heretic" for awhile and must be careful not to wear it as a badge of pride....but I grieve mostly for lost relationships because of some man made technicality...grace is such a difficult thing... Vofes's "Embrace and Exclusion" is a great read... Maybe someday I will again join a local church...... Still wondering, if my heart is right, why can't I walk in and do communion in catholic church...or any church where Christ is elevated? I don't think humans have the power to exclude me from the Bride of Christ.... Kathy,

As always, my heart resonates with yours…I’ve been a so called “heretic” for awhile and must be careful not to wear it as a badge of pride….but I grieve mostly for lost relationships because of some man made technicality…grace is such a difficult thing…

Vofes’s “Embrace and Exclusion” is a great read…

Maybe someday I will again join a local church……

Still wondering, if my heart is right, why can’t I walk in and do communion in catholic church…or any church where Christ is elevated? I don’t think humans have the power to exclude me from the Bride of Christ….

]]>