Comments on: doubt & faith: God, you out there? http://kathyescobar.com/2009/10/19/doubt-faith-god-you-out-there/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=doubt-faith-god-you-out-there Sat, 04 Feb 2012 05:04:17 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Els http://kathyescobar.com/2009/10/19/doubt-faith-god-you-out-there/#comment-2951 Els Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:32:23 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2430#comment-2951 Yes that's waht i meant Kathy!! PRESENCE!! Thank you Jason for your comment tooo!! Yes that’s waht i meant Kathy!! PRESENCE!!

Thank you Jason for your comment tooo!!

]]> By: kathyescobar http://kathyescobar.com/2009/10/19/doubt-faith-god-you-out-there/#comment-2943 kathyescobar Sat, 24 Oct 2009 19:09:01 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2430#comment-2943 thank you all for taking the time to share a piece of your heart & journey. i apologize for the late response, but please know that i hold your comments tenderly & am thankful that you take time to let me know what these thoughts stir up in you. <strong>maggie</strong> - thanks for taking time to stop by and comment. i am so glad you feel that peace and simplicity. it is a gift. <strong>joy</strong> - oh i always love to hear from you & yes, when i hear that kind of response it just makes me feel quite ill, actually. it is all so much to wrestle with, no easy answers & i just so appreciate your honesty and courage to let go of so much of what had the appearance of safety. <strong>mary</strong> - yeah, they both exist don't they...the letting go & the rage sometimes. <strong>angela</strong> - glad these thoughts stirred up some goodness in you. no doubt, the easy trite answers are the last thing our friends need. <strong>jack</strong> - thanks for reading & taking time to comment. yeah, we were recently talking about c.s. lewis' book "the problem of pain" (i think that's what it's called?) at our house of refuge. he has such fab ways of speaking some of these dilemmas out loud. hope to catch up one of these days. <strong>randy</strong> - oh how i love you. every time i hear from you i can't help but smile and be glad that you are in our lives from afar. you tell it like it is, it is crap, these trite things that we say to make sense of something senseless. yep, shit happens. and God is still God and the whole darn thing is often mysterious and weird. <strong>john</strong> - your comments always make me laugh out loud and hit the nail on the head. my favorite line: " I like that shit just happens, I like that I don’t have a theology that can explain that, I like that in spite of a lot of doubt; I know that in the end Love will always win. I like that God is out there, in more places than I ever imagined." amen. <strong>randi</strong> - i, too, remember when the trite responses just wouldn't cut it anymore. i'm so glad. they don't help, they just do harm and falsely make us feel better & others feel worse. it's good to learn more honest responses. <strong>robert</strong> - always great to hear from you & yes, talk about a paradox! the ultimate paradox, really. <strong>jacob</strong> - oh i appreciate your honesty. thanks for just telling it like it is, what's really going on inside. you're not alone in the feeling, that's for sure. these are the moments i long for easy magical answers and know that there are none... <strong>rae</strong> - thank you for taking time to let me know you read. it always means a lot... <strong>els</strong> - oh your heart always roars out of your comments. thanks for sharing & i think giving up the need to give answers is one of the most important things we can learn from. loving. holding. listening. hanging in. presence. that's enough. xoxoxo from afar. <strong>jason</strong> - great hearing from you and telling it like it is. i agree with you & els, so much damage done trying to give answers. it seems that never much damage gets done with just presence, does it? <strong>stacy </strong>- there it is, up close and personal, real life, real tragedy. sorry for the pain but so glad you are there to listen, to love, to be present in the midst of such a mess with absolutely no answers. <strong>ron</strong> - thank you so much for taking time to share a piece of your heart. sorry for such a deep and painful loss...oh, these are those moments that no words will do, that's for sure. i love what you said here: "But, I find it’s often in these tragic seasons of life it’s not the ” God Out There “. But the ” God in and Around Here ” that speaks. Through the love, the compassion, the grace of friends, and community. I think it becomes the voice of ” God with Us. ” beautiful. absolutely beautiful. thank you all for taking the time to share a piece of your heart & journey. i apologize for the late response, but please know that i hold your comments tenderly & am thankful that you take time to let me know what these thoughts stir up in you.

maggie – thanks for taking time to stop by and comment. i am so glad you feel that peace and simplicity. it is a gift.

joy – oh i always love to hear from you & yes, when i hear that kind of response it just makes me feel quite ill, actually. it is all so much to wrestle with, no easy answers & i just so appreciate your honesty and courage to let go of so much of what had the appearance of safety.

mary – yeah, they both exist don’t they…the letting go & the rage sometimes.

angela – glad these thoughts stirred up some goodness in you. no doubt, the easy trite answers are the last thing our friends need.

jack – thanks for reading & taking time to comment. yeah, we were recently talking about c.s. lewis’ book “the problem of pain” (i think that’s what it’s called?) at our house of refuge. he has such fab ways of speaking some of these dilemmas out loud. hope to catch up one of these days.

randy – oh how i love you. every time i hear from you i can’t help but smile and be glad that you are in our lives from afar. you tell it like it is, it is crap, these trite things that we say to make sense of something senseless. yep, shit happens. and God is still God and the whole darn thing is often mysterious and weird.

john – your comments always make me laugh out loud and hit the nail on the head. my favorite line: ” I like that shit just happens, I like that I don’t have a theology that can explain that, I like that in spite of a lot of doubt; I know that in the end Love will always win. I like that God is out there, in more places than I ever imagined.” amen.

randi – i, too, remember when the trite responses just wouldn’t cut it anymore. i’m so glad. they don’t help, they just do harm and falsely make us feel better & others feel worse. it’s good to learn more honest responses.

robert – always great to hear from you & yes, talk about a paradox! the ultimate paradox, really.

jacob – oh i appreciate your honesty. thanks for just telling it like it is, what’s really going on inside. you’re not alone in the feeling, that’s for sure. these are the moments i long for easy magical answers and know that there are none…

rae – thank you for taking time to let me know you read. it always means a lot…

els – oh your heart always roars out of your comments. thanks for sharing & i think giving up the need to give answers is one of the most important things we can learn from. loving. holding. listening. hanging in. presence. that’s enough. xoxoxo from afar.

jason – great hearing from you and telling it like it is. i agree with you & els, so much damage done trying to give answers. it seems that never much damage gets done with just presence, does it?

stacy - there it is, up close and personal, real life, real tragedy. sorry for the pain but so glad you are there to listen, to love, to be present in the midst of such a mess with absolutely no answers.

ron – thank you so much for taking time to share a piece of your heart. sorry for such a deep and painful loss…oh, these are those moments that no words will do, that’s for sure. i love what you said here: “But, I find it’s often in these tragic seasons of life it’s not the ” God Out There “. But the ” God in and Around Here ” that speaks. Through the love, the compassion, the grace of friends, and community. I think it becomes the voice of ” God with Us. ” beautiful. absolutely beautiful.

]]> By: ron cole http://kathyescobar.com/2009/10/19/doubt-faith-god-you-out-there/#comment-2942 ron cole Fri, 23 Oct 2009 20:13:45 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2430#comment-2942 Hi Kathy, in a tragic moment in my life, my youngest brother died 3 feet from the insulin syringe that could have saved his life. I know he had faith and was likely on some deep level uttering a life or death prayer. It was a time when God was on mute. I cried, I prayed, I screamed questions...nothing. No answers, It was the darkest season in my life. It lasted months. But even in this void, this black abyss I came closer to God, but not because of any resolution. Like Job, I could only declare God is God. That in the immensity of all that is creation, and in the infinite reality that makes up God, we hold a speck of dust, like a piece of an infinite puzzle. My faith concludes that there is a God that holds " it " all together, which is different than " controlling " it. But, I find it's often in these tragic seasons of life it's not the " God Out There ". But the " God in and Around Here " that speaks. Through the love, the compassion, the grace of friends, and community. I think it becomes the voice of " God with Us. " Thanks for this post, stirred up some bad memories, but also some beautiful, and wonderful truths. Hi Kathy, in a tragic moment in my life, my youngest brother died 3 feet from the insulin syringe that could have saved his life. I know he had faith and was likely on some deep level uttering a life or death prayer. It was a time when God was on mute. I cried, I prayed, I screamed questions…nothing. No answers, It was the darkest season in my life. It lasted months. But even in this void, this black abyss I came closer to God, but not because of any resolution. Like Job, I could only declare God is God. That in the immensity of all that is creation, and in the infinite reality that makes up God, we hold a speck of dust, like a piece of an infinite puzzle. My faith concludes that there is a God that holds ” it ” all together, which is different than ” controlling ” it. But, I find it’s often in these tragic seasons of life it’s not the ” God Out There “. But the ” God in and Around Here ” that speaks. Through the love, the compassion, the grace of friends, and community. I think it becomes the voice of ” God with Us. ” Thanks for this post, stirred up some bad memories, but also some beautiful, and wonderful truths.

]]> By: Stacy http://kathyescobar.com/2009/10/19/doubt-faith-god-you-out-there/#comment-2941 Stacy Fri, 23 Oct 2009 04:40:02 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2430#comment-2941 Catch me on a good night, most nights, I can see sooo much hope despite circumstances. I have seen redemption and beauty up close, and have seen how presence makes a world of difference. Tonight, however, I was struck with story after story in group; a 5 year old trying to make sense of her dad's murder; a 7 year old processing her mom's suicide; a 3 year old asking me if she was going to die of cancer too?!?! So many more questions than answers. :( I am not really sure why tonight was harder than most, but, I truly needed to remind myself that my "love, hope, and kindness" is enough for today. Catch me on a good night, most nights, I can see sooo much hope despite circumstances. I have seen redemption and beauty up close, and have seen how presence makes a world of difference.

Tonight, however, I was struck with story after story in group; a 5 year old trying to make sense of her dad’s murder; a 7 year old processing her mom’s suicide; a 3 year old asking me if she was going to die of cancer too?!?! So many more questions than answers. :(

I am not really sure why tonight was harder than most, but, I truly needed to remind myself that my “love, hope, and kindness” is enough for today.

]]> By: Jason http://kathyescobar.com/2009/10/19/doubt-faith-god-you-out-there/#comment-2940 Jason Wed, 21 Oct 2009 03:13:46 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2430#comment-2940 I like what Els has to say, "people always want to give answers and sometimes their are no answers but to love, to touch, to hug, scream and cry about it." What is it with christians needing to have the right answer? Is there a pressure to point suffering souls in the right direction? Pressure to not "miss an opportunity" to lead someone closer to Christ? B/c if someone did miss that opportunity, then would Jesus be upset? Is that what Jesus has become... someone who gets mad at us when fail to lead someone to a more correct theology? Is that what matters in the church today... how correct my doctrine is? If I've finally overcome the stubbornness of my heart and mind to accept that yes, "God is in control." What do I win when I get to that place? Does Jesus love me more? Do I get more happiness? Do I bring more life to others when I finally believe that everything happens for a reason? If a correct theology is what Jesus requires of his child, then i'm out, find me a new teacher. But I'm pretty sure that's not what he wanted. I have to believe that what Els wants is what Jesus asks of me, and is also what brings life to the suffering, and what brought me life in my suffering...someone to sit and cry and wipe my tears and hold me tight and offer me their heart and support, for as long as it took until I was able to smile again. Be with us until we can smile Jesus. Tell us we're beautiful. Tell us we're worth it. And when we can smile, we'll go out and sit with others until they can too. I like what Els has to say, “people always want to give answers and sometimes their are no answers but to love, to touch, to hug, scream and cry about it.”

What is it with christians needing to have the right answer? Is there a pressure to point suffering souls in the right direction? Pressure to not “miss an opportunity” to lead someone closer to Christ? B/c if someone did miss that opportunity, then would Jesus be upset? Is that what Jesus has become… someone who gets mad at us when fail to lead someone to a more correct theology? Is that what matters in the church today… how correct my doctrine is? If I’ve finally overcome the stubbornness of my heart and mind to accept that yes, “God is in control.” What do I win when I get to that place? Does Jesus love me more? Do I get more happiness? Do I bring more life to others when I finally believe that everything happens for a reason?

If a correct theology is what Jesus requires of his child, then i’m out, find me a new teacher. But I’m pretty sure that’s not what he wanted. I have to believe that what Els wants is what Jesus asks of me, and is also what brings life to the suffering, and what brought me life in my suffering…someone to sit and cry and wipe my tears and hold me tight and offer me their heart and support, for as long as it took until I was able to smile again. Be with us until we can smile Jesus. Tell us we’re beautiful. Tell us we’re worth it. And when we can smile, we’ll go out and sit with others until they can too.

]]> By: Els http://kathyescobar.com/2009/10/19/doubt-faith-god-you-out-there/#comment-2939 Els Tue, 20 Oct 2009 09:02:26 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2430#comment-2939 Dear Kathy Again!! Wow!! You touched my heart in a big way my friend!! I was recently struggling with this aswell!!And basicly i have no answer. I have been through rough times myself!! And i wished that people just cared and listend when i was angry!! I thought about it lately why do i need to be listen at? Because i saw that no-one did!! I couldn't grieve because of that!!I couldn't put things in perspectief. So it kept me in the darkness for a long time!! Untill some friends start to listen an loving me even though they could'nt give me a answer. Which i didn't want at that time, because life sucked for me and God too. I was just angry!! People mean well but sometimes we are angry or sad!! People always want to give answers and sometimes their are no answers but to love, to touch, to hug, scream and cry about it even though they are angry or don't understand what is going on!! Anyway recently i was reading Job and i felt so encouraged by him, because of him being human about his situation. That really helped me to see that is it is okey to be angry and also not understand why things happen. He still believed in God after all the stuff that happen to him. But could also show his doubts and anger to God!! Thanks my friend for a be honest again!! It is a great help to me. Elsx Dear Kathy Again!! Wow!! You touched my heart in a big way my friend!!

I was recently struggling with this aswell!!And basicly i have no answer. I have been through rough times myself!! And i wished that people just cared and listend when i was angry!! I thought about it lately why do i need to be listen at? Because i saw that no-one did!! I couldn’t grieve because of that!!I couldn’t put things in perspectief. So it kept me in the darkness for a long time!! Untill some friends start to listen an loving me even though they could’nt give me a answer. Which i didn’t want at that time, because life sucked for me and God too. I was just angry!!

People mean well but sometimes we are angry or sad!! People always want to give answers and sometimes their are no answers but to love, to touch, to hug, scream and cry about it even though they are angry or don’t understand what is going on!! Anyway recently i was reading Job and i felt so encouraged by him, because of him being human about his situation. That really helped me to see that is it is okey to be angry and also not understand why things happen. He still believed in God after all the stuff that happen to him. But could also show his doubts and anger to God!!

Thanks my friend for a be honest again!! It is a great help to me.
Elsx

]]> By: Rae http://kathyescobar.com/2009/10/19/doubt-faith-god-you-out-there/#comment-2938 Rae Tue, 20 Oct 2009 08:57:15 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2430#comment-2938 Kathy~ Thank you. Joy~ Thank you for thinking of me & for paying this post forward. Kathy~ Thank you.

Joy~
Thank you for thinking of me & for paying this post forward.

]]> By: Jacob http://kathyescobar.com/2009/10/19/doubt-faith-god-you-out-there/#comment-2937 Jacob Tue, 20 Oct 2009 03:21:24 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2430#comment-2937 Maybe my faith is finally gone. I read all this, and I'm having a hard time buying it. Sorry, I like all the perspectives and the discussion. For me though, I don't only question why God isn't there during the bad times, but also during the good. He seems to make no distinction about whether we're in peril or joy, it just so happens that joy is easier to assign to a God who is perfectly good. I can't shake the feeling that he's perfectly indifferent. Ugh. Maybe my faith is finally gone. I read all this, and I’m having a hard time buying it. Sorry, I like all the perspectives and the discussion. For me though, I don’t only question why God isn’t there during the bad times, but also during the good. He seems to make no distinction about whether we’re in peril or joy, it just so happens that joy is easier to assign to a God who is perfectly good. I can’t shake the feeling that he’s perfectly indifferent. Ugh.

]]> By: Robert http://kathyescobar.com/2009/10/19/doubt-faith-god-you-out-there/#comment-2936 Robert Tue, 20 Oct 2009 01:52:43 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2430#comment-2936 Kathy- love how you tackle paradoxical issues in life and cause us to ponder in a reflective, meditative way. I struggle with reconciling the 2 notions of is God all good and is God all powerful. I have seen a few discussions where it looks like it has to be one or the other. I think with freewill and freedom they both are true though. All the horrible incidents you mentioned, God does not will that to happen for some way to glorify Himself, but He Himself went through it and suffered the worst death imaginable because He loves us as His creation that much. What you shared is so true, we can't make sense of it or understand it so often, but we can understand a God so incredible He became us so He would experience everything we have and have His loving action be a true symbol and hope for us no matter how down we get. Kathy- love how you tackle paradoxical issues in life and cause us to ponder in a reflective, meditative way. I struggle with reconciling the 2 notions of is God all good and is God all powerful. I have seen a few discussions where it looks like it has to be one or the other. I think with freewill and freedom they both are true though. All the horrible incidents you mentioned, God does not will that to happen for some way to glorify Himself, but He Himself went through it and suffered the worst death imaginable because He loves us as His creation that much. What you shared is so true, we can’t make sense of it or understand it so often, but we can understand a God so incredible He became us so He would experience everything we have and have His loving action be a true symbol and hope for us no matter how down we get.

]]> By: Randi :) http://kathyescobar.com/2009/10/19/doubt-faith-god-you-out-there/#comment-2935 Randi :) Tue, 20 Oct 2009 01:25:24 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2430#comment-2935 very good as usual. I remember when I took the first steps out of my cliche faith and was really digging into what I really believed about God for real.... and was confronted by a friend in a horrible ugly situation and she was asking for me to tell her something 'positive' and I realized that all the things I used to be able to say.... I just couldn't spit out.... because I didn't truly fully know what was going to happen and I was afraid of filling her with false hope or promising her something that wouldn't come true. I remember crying out to God (inside) God give me something. what is ONE promise I can tell her that for sure for sure will absolutely be right that she can cling to. And that was it... that He DOES love us beyond what we'll ever be able to figure out... and that He will not leave/forsake us. "always always, the savior never fails. when all hope is gone, His promise remains - He knows our pain and He will be with us" He is right there in the midst of the turmoil and He won't desert. It won't get so bad that He will ever bail. He will be there always with compassion and love. :) amazing! very good as usual.

I remember when I took the first steps out of my cliche faith and was really digging into what I really believed about God for real…. and was confronted by a friend in a horrible ugly situation and she was asking for me to tell her something ‘positive’ and I realized that all the things I used to be able to say…. I just couldn’t spit out…. because I didn’t truly fully know what was going to happen and I was afraid of filling her with false hope or promising her something that wouldn’t come true. I remember crying out to God (inside) God give me something. what is ONE promise I can tell her that for sure for sure will absolutely be right that she can cling to. And that was it… that He DOES love us beyond what we’ll ever be able to figure out… and that He will not leave/forsake us. “always always, the savior never fails. when all hope is gone, His promise remains – He knows our pain and He will be with us” He is right there in the midst of the turmoil and He won’t desert. It won’t get so bad that He will ever bail. He will be there always with compassion and love. :) amazing!

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