Comments on: it’s easy to be against health care reform when you have insurance http://kathyescobar.com/2009/08/31/its-easy-to-be-against-health-care-reform-when-you-have-insurance/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=its-easy-to-be-against-health-care-reform-when-you-have-insurance Mon, 21 May 2012 14:36:38 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: The Damned, The Uninsured… « Write On Sister… http://kathyescobar.com/2009/08/31/its-easy-to-be-against-health-care-reform-when-you-have-insurance/#comment-4674 The Damned, The Uninsured… « Write On Sister… Sun, 02 Jan 2011 19:29:15 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2330#comment-4674 [...] friend and often-quoted fellow blogger, Kathy Escobar, says “It’s easy to be against health care reform when you have insurance.“  Can you imagine what people without health insurance worry about?  I can.  They [...] [...] friend and often-quoted fellow blogger, Kathy Escobar, says “It’s easy to be against health care reform when you have insurance.“  Can you imagine what people without health insurance worry about?  I can.  They [...]

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]]> By: Cierra http://kathyescobar.com/2009/08/31/its-easy-to-be-against-health-care-reform-when-you-have-insurance/#comment-3659 Cierra Wed, 24 Mar 2010 22:52:43 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2330#comment-3659 Great thoughts! My fave - "...that we’d take all the money that we waste on church video screens and building mortgages and big ol’ fat salaries and looking good and feeling good and directly invest it in making sure that in the communities we lived in (beyond just faith communities) there was no one who went without." - I agree! I love how the believers in Acts sold all that they had and gave to those as they were in need. Compelled by the gospel, they gave ALL that they had so that none would be in need. In doing this, they were believing that the God that they put their trust and hope in would provide for their needs. I think what matters most is that hearts are changed and turned to the the Lord by His truth as revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. As a follower of Jesus, His word is my ultimate guide and authority. Great thoughts! My fave – “…that we’d take all the money that we waste on church video screens and building mortgages and big ol’ fat salaries and looking good and feeling good and directly invest it in making sure that in the communities we lived in (beyond just faith communities) there was no one who went without.” – I agree! I love how the believers in Acts sold all that they had and gave to those as they were in need. Compelled by the gospel, they gave ALL that they had so that none would be in need. In doing this, they were believing that the God that they put their trust and hope in would provide for their needs. I think what matters most is that hearts are changed and turned to the the Lord by His truth as revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. As a follower of Jesus, His word is my ultimate guide and authority.

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]]> By: kathyescobar http://kathyescobar.com/2009/08/31/its-easy-to-be-against-health-care-reform-when-you-have-insurance/#comment-3255 kathyescobar Sun, 31 Jan 2010 20:59:21 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2330#comment-3255 <strong>momo</strong> - thanks for your powerful thoughts. how did you find this post? i am sorry for the late response but have been out of the country & am just catching up. i really appreciated what you said about the reality of what life-is-really-like-when-you-need-help-from-the-church-but-can't-get-it. it all sounds well and good to say that "the church should do it" but in reality it just doesn't typically happen. i have a long line of people i know who have real and tangible health care needs but zero people in line to actually meet them. i am sorry for your experience with your church, too, that really sucks. i was just in europe for a few days before our trip to africa and in talking about what health care is like there, it is amazing to hear how much of a non-issue it is for them and how freeing it is to know that their basic needs are taken care of. i have a few friends who have health problems BECAUSE of their lack of insurance. the stress that it is creating could all be relieved. again, i think it's easy to be against health care reform when we have insurance, but try life without it and i'm guessing a lot of tunes would change. thanks again for sharing. <strong>randi & sage</strong> - oh it is always fun to leave the room and know that the conversation continues. i do think sometimes we can beat the thoughts to the ground and end up in the same place in the end but i love the debate/dialogue and believe it's necessary to keep hacking at our assumptions. momo – thanks for your powerful thoughts. how did you find this post? i am sorry for the late response but have been out of the country & am just catching up. i really appreciated what you said about the reality of what life-is-really-like-when-you-need-help-from-the-church-but-can’t-get-it. it all sounds well and good to say that “the church should do it” but in reality it just doesn’t typically happen. i have a long line of people i know who have real and tangible health care needs but zero people in line to actually meet them. i am sorry for your experience with your church, too, that really sucks. i was just in europe for a few days before our trip to africa and in talking about what health care is like there, it is amazing to hear how much of a non-issue it is for them and how freeing it is to know that their basic needs are taken care of. i have a few friends who have health problems BECAUSE of their lack of insurance. the stress that it is creating could all be relieved. again, i think it’s easy to be against health care reform when we have insurance, but try life without it and i’m guessing a lot of tunes would change. thanks again for sharing.

randi & sage – oh it is always fun to leave the room and know that the conversation continues. i do think sometimes we can beat the thoughts to the ground and end up in the same place in the end but i love the debate/dialogue and believe it’s necessary to keep hacking at our assumptions.

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]]> By: Randi :) http://kathyescobar.com/2009/08/31/its-easy-to-be-against-health-care-reform-when-you-have-insurance/#comment-3251 Randi :) Sat, 30 Jan 2010 13:45:57 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2330#comment-3251 yes "big" anything can be extremely destructive... because too much power given to *anything* (a major monopoloy business or industry or government) not kept in check is destructive. and yes I do have a lot of fear toward unchecked power. especially in gov't. like I said -- not sure if it's because of what I've read, heard, had passed on down to me in journals, stories from my grandparent's experiences in Germany or what.... I agree that the federal corporate "we" as a bigger union can do some things better together..... I don't think overtaking individual healthcare needs of the people is one of them. I would trust the "little states" over the feds any day - look at how responsible (irresponible) they have been without our money and with about every single commission or business they have taken over or created. not sure what the solution is, that's for sure! yes “big” anything can be extremely destructive… because too much power given to *anything* (a major monopoloy business or industry or government) not kept in check is destructive.

and yes I do have a lot of fear toward unchecked power. especially in gov’t. like I said — not sure if it’s because of what I’ve read, heard, had passed on down to me in journals, stories from my grandparent’s experiences in Germany or what….

I agree that the federal corporate “we” as a bigger union can do some things better together….. I don’t think overtaking individual healthcare needs of the people is one of them. I would trust the “little states” over the feds any day – look at how responsible (irresponible) they have been without our money and with about every single commission or business they have taken over or created.

not sure what the solution is, that’s for sure!

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]]> By: Sage H. http://kathyescobar.com/2009/08/31/its-easy-to-be-against-health-care-reform-when-you-have-insurance/#comment-3250 Sage H. Sat, 30 Jan 2010 02:27:15 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2330#comment-3250 Thanks for the answer, Randi. I'm not interested in overthrowing the government or re-writing the constitution. I just literally did not understand what you meant by "the people" when you use that phrase. I understand that we use it differently though (after your explanation). I understand that as citizens of the United States each one of us is one of "the people". Your neighbors are "the people". Folks who work for the federal government in washington DC are also "the people" doing things which affect all of "the people" As a citizen inclusive representative democracy, we are not only the people, but the government itself in a way. WE are THE PEOLE that you are talking about, the same WE THE PEOPLE the the founders were talking about. Like you, I like more localized government for most things, but there are some things that the collective WE can do much better as one union than little states. I hear a lot of fear in your statements and I invite you to consider if your fear is your own gained from your own experience, or if it is inherited, or if it has been installed by someone you don't even know. I fear another kind of power- one that I and others have immediate personal experience with. the power which is firmly in place between me (and my friends) and life saving health care. It is not "the public" or "the government", It is and has been (within living memory) the "for profit insurance corporation". Taking power away from the goverment is not going to result in the people having any more health care or any more power- corporations are there to step into the power vacuum, and we will be beholden to them in that future even more than we are now. And in spite of the Supreme Court's recent decision, multinational corporations are not people, much less "the people". I don't trust them any more than you trust the federal government! Thanks for the answer, Randi.
I’m not interested in overthrowing the government or re-writing the constitution. I just literally did not understand what you meant by “the people” when you use that phrase.
I understand that we use it differently though (after your explanation). I understand that as citizens of the United States each one of us is one of “the people”. Your neighbors are “the people”. Folks who work for the federal government in washington DC are also “the people” doing things which affect all of “the people” As a citizen inclusive representative democracy, we are not only the people, but the government itself in a way. WE are THE PEOLE that you are talking about, the same WE THE PEOPLE the the founders were talking about.
Like you, I like more localized government for most things, but there are some things that the collective WE can do much better as one union than little states. I hear a lot of fear in your statements and I invite you to consider if your fear is your own gained from your own experience, or if it is inherited, or if it has been installed by someone you don’t even know.
I fear another kind of power- one that I and others have immediate personal experience with. the power which is firmly in place between me (and my friends) and life saving health care. It is not “the public” or “the government”, It is and has been (within living memory) the “for profit insurance corporation”. Taking power away from the goverment is not going to result in the people having any more health care or any more power- corporations are there to step into the power vacuum, and we will be beholden to them in that future even more than we are now. And in spite of the Supreme Court’s recent decision, multinational corporations are not people, much less “the people”. I don’t trust them any more than you trust the federal government!

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]]> By: Randi :) http://kathyescobar.com/2009/08/31/its-easy-to-be-against-health-care-reform-when-you-have-insurance/#comment-3249 Randi :) Fri, 29 Jan 2010 22:16:59 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2330#comment-3249 @Sage this is getting too tricky because we are no longer talking ideologies but the nitty gritty of how our specific government is set up and works. It's intriguing to me that you would even bring up the constitution? Do you respect and follow this man made document? It's an interesting debate and not really one I want to get into.... because it's so off topic of what Kathy's heart was getting at...... but I guess it's really not - because I truly see that so many are "against" universal healthcare not because they are uncaring, cold people --- but maybe because they just have a different idea of the best way to get to the same means we want. To answer just your question though because I believe it deserves an answer..... When I say, "the people" I'm talking of the citizens of the United States. Not the government that represents them. In this preamble to the constitution, it was not part of the document that gave 'power' to any branch listed after... it was just that, a preamble. The document and amendments go on to distribute power and 'lay out' a framework of what the gov't would look like and to get to these "ends" listed.... the founding father's laid out what they believe would be the best way to get there. "general welfare" was only listed one other time in the entire document... and it was the general welfare of "the united states".... and had nothing to do with citizen's individual needs or healthcare. The constitution very clearly lays out what congress has the power to do or not to do. Control or not to control --- and insurance/healthcare/individual welfare is not one of them. the fathers were very clear that, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." ...(10th amendment) thereby giving the power to the states.... or to, "the people"... and not the federal government. they didn't want the fed. government to be entangled in the individual's daily welfare. I agree with the constitution. whenever that doc mentions "United States" it talks about the fed government - 3 branches... and "the people" as the states and/or 'the people'. and that's the terminology I was going with . when it comes down to it, our congress is trying to take power they were never granted and we would have to re-write or amend this document to give it to them. now if you want to get into a healthcare debate on what each *state*'s viewpoint and stance should be on the 'right' for healthcare.. that's more tricky for me. I don't know.... I do trust the limited state government more than I do the federal.... for example momo's example of fire departments and such... but I think it brings me back to the same argument I can't get over in my head of not giving the government more and more power in our individual lives. anyway -- back to what I was saying. I'm not saying one way or the other if that's what we should do (scrap constitution and re-write it to give the legislative branch more power) --- because many here could throw the constitution out the window and try again and make a new document to try to get the gov't to operate like the church *should* ... so I'm sure it's not worth debating.... but that being said. I'm for keeping the constitution the way it is and keeping my hope in "the people" and not the United States. @Sage

this is getting too tricky because we are no longer talking ideologies but the nitty gritty of how our specific government is set up and works. It’s intriguing to me that you would even bring up the constitution? Do you respect and follow this man made document?

It’s an interesting debate and not really one I want to get into…. because it’s so off topic of what Kathy’s heart was getting at…… but I guess it’s really not – because I truly see that so many are “against” universal healthcare not because they are uncaring, cold people — but maybe because they just have a different idea of the best way to get to the same means we want.

To answer just your question though because I believe it deserves an answer….. When I say, “the people” I’m talking of the citizens of the United States. Not the government that represents them. In this preamble to the constitution, it was not part of the document that gave ‘power’ to any branch listed after… it was just that, a preamble. The document and amendments go on to distribute power and ‘lay out’ a framework of what the gov’t would look like and to get to these “ends” listed…. the founding father’s laid out what they believe would be the best way to get there. “general welfare” was only listed one other time in the entire document… and it was the general welfare of “the united states”…. and had nothing to do with citizen’s individual needs or healthcare.

The constitution very clearly lays out what congress has the power to do or not to do. Control or not to control — and insurance/healthcare/individual welfare is not one of them.

the fathers were very clear that, “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” …(10th amendment) thereby giving the power to the states…. or to, “the people”… and not the federal government. they didn’t want the fed. government to be entangled in the individual’s daily welfare.

I agree with the constitution. whenever that doc mentions “United States” it talks about the fed government – 3 branches… and “the people” as the states and/or ‘the people’. and that’s the terminology I was going with .

when it comes down to it, our congress is trying to take power they were never granted and we would have to re-write or amend this document to give it to them.

now if you want to get into a healthcare debate on what each *state*’s viewpoint and stance should be on the ‘right’ for healthcare.. that’s more tricky for me. I don’t know…. I do trust the limited state government more than I do the federal…. for example momo’s example of fire departments and such… but I think it brings me back to the same argument I can’t get over in my head of not giving the government more and more power in our individual lives.

anyway — back to what I was saying.

I’m not saying one way or the other if that’s what we should do (scrap constitution and re-write it to give the legislative branch more power) — because many here could throw the constitution out the window and try again and make a new document to try to get the gov’t to operate like the church *should* … so I’m sure it’s not worth debating…. but that being said. I’m for keeping the constitution the way it is and keeping my hope in “the people” and not the United States.

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]]> By: Sage H. http://kathyescobar.com/2009/08/31/its-easy-to-be-against-health-care-reform-when-you-have-insurance/#comment-3248 Sage H. Fri, 29 Jan 2010 21:23:51 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2330#comment-3248 Hi Randi- :-) you wrote " it seems like too much power to me to be given to a public entity rather than in the hands of the people. i vote for more power in the hands of the people. I’m sorry that the people have done such a poor job in many’s eyes…. but our lack of empathy and caring for each other doesn’t make it seem okay to me to let the government try." [img]http://www.mattwardman.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/q-photo-we-the-people-american-constitution.jpg[/img] "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." So Randi, What do you mean when you say 'the people', and what part of this document is offensive to you? Hi Randi- :-)
you wrote
” it seems like too much power to me to be given to a public entity rather than in the hands of the people. i vote for more power in the hands of the people. I’m sorry that the people have done such a poor job in many’s eyes…. but our lack of empathy and caring for each other doesn’t make it seem okay to me to let the government try.”
[img]http://www.mattwardman.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/q-photo-we-the-people-american-constitution.jpg[/img]
“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
So Randi, What do you mean when you say ‘the people’, and what part of this document is offensive to you?

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]]> By: Randi :) http://kathyescobar.com/2009/08/31/its-easy-to-be-against-health-care-reform-when-you-have-insurance/#comment-3244 Randi :) Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:51:22 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2330#comment-3244 @Momo & Tom I didn't feel judgement from Tom at all --- in fact I was reading the book Boundaries while reading this and actually was thinking how wise his response was. It seems that he made it clear he wasn't talking about truly oppressed people but people he was in relationship with who he knew he was enabling rather than giving life to. I know that how *I* would want to be treated if I was an able adult who just had boundary issues (that lead to laziness, lack of self worth, self esteem issues) --- I would want somebody to believe in me enough to stop enabling me or making it seem like I "needed" help because I wasn't as good as them.... but instead show some tough love (and YES stay alongside me and encourage me and check in and love on me and be there when I fall) that would help me build some of my own muscles in many areas of my life to make me stronger not keep me weaker. Maybe I over-read into Tom's comment though, I just thought it was interesting how we could read the same thing and get such different opinions. I loved that book Boundaries btw @Momo & Tom

I didn’t feel judgement from Tom at all — in fact I was reading the book Boundaries while reading this and actually was thinking how wise his response was. It seems that he made it clear he wasn’t talking about truly oppressed people but people he was in relationship with who he knew he was enabling rather than giving life to. I know that how *I* would want to be treated if I was an able adult who just had boundary issues (that lead to laziness, lack of self worth, self esteem issues) — I would want somebody to believe in me enough to stop enabling me or making it seem like I “needed” help because I wasn’t as good as them…. but instead show some tough love (and YES stay alongside me and encourage me and check in and love on me and be there when I fall) that would help me build some of my own muscles in many areas of my life to make me stronger not keep me weaker. Maybe I over-read into Tom’s comment though, I just thought it was interesting how we could read the same thing and get such different opinions.

I loved that book Boundaries btw

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]]> By: Randi :) http://kathyescobar.com/2009/08/31/its-easy-to-be-against-health-care-reform-when-you-have-insurance/#comment-3243 Randi :) Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:45:45 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2330#comment-3243 @ Momo --- that's a great response. Not so graceful - but that's cool - I can see your passionate about it and will accept whatever tone I'm reading from you. I know that I have a lot to learn yes ... I really stay away from political debates anymore -- but I do think my opinion was worth typing. I guess healthcare *IS* different for me than the things you mentioned because it's something we all need all the time.... there's TOO much power in that because there is going to be limits so choices will have to be made that I don't feel comfortable with the gov't making. having the government take over healthcare isn't going to give us the resources we need to make everybody get what they need. Right now, we don't have such a need in the fire department that some people's houses are saved and some are not. My friend Karen for example, has a son who is a year and a half and whose life was just saved with a kidney donation from a family friend. Through talking with that donor program, insurance and doctors --- it's known by all that if this healthcare passes.... there will be no more private donors. Donations will go into a bank and the gov't will say who gets the kidney... little matthew who was told to be aborted will have never made that list and he would be dead by now. unlike the police or fire department --- choices are made in healthcare every day that make the government be in a position to determine the value of one's life over another - it seems like too much power to me to be given to a public entity rather than in the hands of the people. i vote for more power in the hands of the people. I'm sorry that the people have done such a poor job in many's eyes.... but our lack of empathy and caring for each other doesn't make it seem okay to me to let the government try. the government sure is INefficient at everything they do - can you imagine them handling our healthcare? I am sorry for how the church treated you. it is discouraging - makes us think twice about giving to church bodies whose money doesn't go back out but stays in (even in ball fields that counts as in) I'm sorry I don't have a lot of wisdom or crazy revelations to share - i just can't get over the hump in my mind to give the government more power over our lives - perhaps of all the stories i read and had passed to me from my grandfather who stayed in germany to help re-build after the fall of hitler @ Momo — that’s a great response. Not so graceful – but that’s cool – I can see your passionate about it and will accept whatever tone I’m reading from you. I know that I have a lot to learn yes … I really stay away from political debates anymore — but I do think my opinion was worth typing.

I guess healthcare *IS* different for me than the things you mentioned because it’s something we all need all the time…. there’s TOO much power in that because there is going to be limits so choices will have to be made that I don’t feel comfortable with the gov’t making. having the government take over healthcare isn’t going to give us the resources we need to make everybody get what they need.

Right now, we don’t have such a need in the fire department that some people’s houses are saved and some are not. My friend Karen for example, has a son who is a year and a half and whose life was just saved with a kidney donation from a family friend. Through talking with that donor program, insurance and doctors — it’s known by all that if this healthcare passes…. there will be no more private donors. Donations will go into a bank and the gov’t will say who gets the kidney… little matthew who was told to be aborted will have never made that list and he would be dead by now.

unlike the police or fire department — choices are made in healthcare every day that make the government be in a position to determine the value of one’s life over another – it seems like too much power to me to be given to a public entity rather than in the hands of the people. i vote for more power in the hands of the people. I’m sorry that the people have done such a poor job in many’s eyes…. but our lack of empathy and caring for each other doesn’t make it seem okay to me to let the government try.

the government sure is INefficient at everything they do – can you imagine them handling our healthcare?

I am sorry for how the church treated you. it is discouraging – makes us think twice about giving to church bodies whose money doesn’t go back out but stays in (even in ball fields that counts as in)

I’m sorry I don’t have a lot of wisdom or crazy revelations to share – i just can’t get over the hump in my mind to give the government more power over our lives – perhaps of all the stories i read and had passed to me from my grandfather who stayed in germany to help re-build after the fall of hitler

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]]> By: Momo http://kathyescobar.com/2009/08/31/its-easy-to-be-against-health-care-reform-when-you-have-insurance/#comment-3242 Momo Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:15:25 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2330#comment-3242 Tom wrote: "However one of the things that bothered my conscious and drove me to seek Father to show me solutions was the large, though not majority, of people who were being enabled by me to continue not taking responsibility for themselves. No I’m not speaking of the Elderly, disabled mentally/developmentally/physically. I’m referring to the able bodied and minded, who have thrown the opportunities they have had to the wind by choice. Neither am a speaking of those who are the genuinely oppressed. I’m speaking of those who fall in the category that the Apostle said are worse than unbelievers, because they do not provide for their families." The answer is we provide for them ANYWAY. We do not sit in judgement, as God will judge them. We are directed to be compassionate, to treat others as we wish to be treated. We leave to God what is HIS work, and do the work He told US to do, which is care for everyone. To sit in judgement as to who is worthy and who is not isn't Christian at all. Christians should be humbling themselves and bowing down to Christ, obeying Him without question. Christ was obedient even unto DEATH, and you are asking why we should show love toward those who may be less than lovable? Wasn't it Jesus who told us that it is easy to love the lovable? He came to save the lost. We should not lean on our own understanding. A person who looks able bodied may not be. A person who seems to have been frivolous may have good reason. Do not judge lest ye be judged. Tom wrote:

“However one of the things that bothered my conscious and drove me to seek Father to show me solutions was the large, though not majority, of people who were being enabled by me to continue not taking responsibility for themselves. No I’m not speaking of the Elderly, disabled mentally/developmentally/physically. I’m referring to the able bodied and minded, who have thrown the opportunities they have had to the wind by choice. Neither am a speaking of those who are the genuinely oppressed. I’m speaking of those who fall in the category that the Apostle said are worse than unbelievers, because they do not provide for their families.”

The answer is we provide for them ANYWAY. We do not sit in judgement, as God will judge them. We are directed to be compassionate, to treat others as we wish to be treated. We leave to God what is HIS work, and do the work He told US to do, which is care for everyone. To sit in judgement as to who is worthy and who is not isn’t Christian at all. Christians should be humbling themselves and bowing down to Christ, obeying Him without question. Christ was obedient even unto DEATH, and you are asking why we should show love toward those who may be less than lovable? Wasn’t it Jesus who told us that it is easy to love the lovable? He came to save the lost. We should not lean on our own understanding. A person who looks able bodied may not be. A person who seems to have been frivolous may have good reason. Do not judge lest ye be judged.

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