Comments on: hope’s two beautiful daughters http://kathyescobar.com/2009/06/19/hopes-two-beautiful-daughters/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=hopes-two-beautiful-daughters Sat, 04 Feb 2012 05:04:17 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: kathyescobar http://kathyescobar.com/2009/06/19/hopes-two-beautiful-daughters/#comment-2554 kathyescobar Mon, 29 Jun 2009 19:36:21 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2102#comment-2554 thanks, mark! thanks, mark!

]]> By: Mark http://kathyescobar.com/2009/06/19/hopes-two-beautiful-daughters/#comment-2544 Mark Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:21:46 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2102#comment-2544 Thanks again for a wonderful piece! Thanks again for a wonderful piece!

]]> By: kathyescobar http://kathyescobar.com/2009/06/19/hopes-two-beautiful-daughters/#comment-2532 kathyescobar Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:51:18 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2102#comment-2532 karin - thanks for your thoughts here, it is always great to hear all kinds of different perspectives and way this plays out. i take comfort in that passage, too, and think about it often. the problem with it sometime is interpretation of what "sin" looks like related to it; people are all over the place on what that might look like, hence, some of the trepidation about expressing it, i am guessing. i think there's much to learn about expressing anger in a healthy way. thanks for sharing! tracy - oh i love the word! i love what you said here: "(fury) moves me to action and compassion" i am so with you! i will share our camping war stories later, needless to say we call it: survivor 2009: lake powell. donna - i know, i am really mixed on augustine. sometimes i love him, sometimes i can't stand him! i am so with you on how confusing anger can be when we haven't had the greatest models for it. tom - yeah, i always say that it is interesting how people will tolerate and remain completely passive about all kinds of true injustices against different groups of hurting people in the world, but say one negative thing about the church and swords will come out a-blazing! ferg - oh thank you for your beautiful thoughts here about anger, God's passion, and allowing our real feelings to be used for good. lovely. i did not know that was in the westminster confession "God has no emotions" come on, that makes no sense with the Bible i read. brother maynard - thanks for the link love peggy - finally you are in my blogreader! don't know how i missed that for so long but somehow i did! good stuff, as always. minnow - i am glad you're letting yourself get in touch with it... you are not alone. jennifer - nice to hear from you at the carnival. thanks for taking time to comment. yeah, i'm learning a lot about it, too. katherine - i'm glad it helps. i liked the thought a lot, too... karin – thanks for your thoughts here, it is always great to hear all kinds of different perspectives and way this plays out. i take comfort in that passage, too, and think about it often. the problem with it sometime is interpretation of what “sin” looks like related to it; people are all over the place on what that might look like, hence, some of the trepidation about expressing it, i am guessing. i think there’s much to learn about expressing anger in a healthy way. thanks for sharing!

tracy – oh i love the word! i love what you said here: “(fury) moves me to action and compassion” i am so with you! i will share our camping war stories later, needless to say we call it: survivor 2009: lake powell.

donna – i know, i am really mixed on augustine. sometimes i love him, sometimes i can’t stand him! i am so with you on how confusing anger can be when we haven’t had the greatest models for it.

tom – yeah, i always say that it is interesting how people will tolerate and remain completely passive about all kinds of true injustices against different groups of hurting people in the world, but say one negative thing about the church and swords will come out a-blazing!

ferg – oh thank you for your beautiful thoughts here about anger, God’s passion, and allowing our real feelings to be used for good. lovely. i did not know that was in the westminster confession “God has no emotions” come on, that makes no sense with the Bible i read.

brother maynard – thanks for the link love

peggy – finally you are in my blogreader! don’t know how i missed that for so long but somehow i did! good stuff, as always.

minnow – i am glad you’re letting yourself get in touch with it… you are not alone.

jennifer – nice to hear from you at the carnival. thanks for taking time to comment. yeah, i’m learning a lot about it, too.

katherine – i’m glad it helps. i liked the thought a lot, too…

]]> By: Katherine Gunn http://kathyescobar.com/2009/06/19/hopes-two-beautiful-daughters/#comment-2526 Katherine Gunn Mon, 22 Jun 2009 13:11:22 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2102#comment-2526 Yeah... anger.... and courage. Hmm... it took anger at what my ex-pastor was doing to his congregation (especially one particular one) to spark to courage to walk away - the courage to look at the system and see what a sham it really is. I'm still in the process of working through a lot of anger...at a lot of things. But Augustine was right on this one. Anger and courage do walk together. Thanks for this post. It has helped clarify this for me a little more. :-) Yeah… anger…. and courage. Hmm… it took anger at what my ex-pastor was doing to his congregation (especially one particular one) to spark to courage to walk away – the courage to look at the system and see what a sham it really is.

I’m still in the process of working through a lot of anger…at a lot of things. But Augustine was right on this one. Anger and courage do walk together.

Thanks for this post. It has helped clarify this for me a little more. :-)

]]> By: Jennifer http://kathyescobar.com/2009/06/19/hopes-two-beautiful-daughters/#comment-2523 Jennifer Sun, 21 Jun 2009 04:18:25 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2102#comment-2523 Anger is not an emotion I have experienced much - but boy have I known it the last few months. I have so much to learn. Anger is not an emotion I have experienced much – but boy have I known it the last few months. I have so much to learn.

]]> By: minnow http://kathyescobar.com/2009/06/19/hopes-two-beautiful-daughters/#comment-2522 minnow Sun, 21 Jun 2009 00:51:49 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2102#comment-2522 I have been angry for so long. And while I have tried over the years to tell myself it is okay to be angry as long as I didn't "sin" I have only recently come to understand that God is in the center of my anger and He is angry too. Thank you, Kathy, once again. I have been angry for so long. And while I have tried over the years to tell myself it is okay to be angry as long as I didn’t “sin” I have only recently come to understand that God is in the center of my anger and He is angry too.
Thank you, Kathy, once again.

]]> By: Peggy http://kathyescobar.com/2009/06/19/hopes-two-beautiful-daughters/#comment-2521 Peggy Sat, 20 Jun 2009 21:38:34 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2102#comment-2521 Well done, kathy ... I'm blogging through a book on handling anger over at my place. Anger and courage ... yes. Hope you have a great time! Well done, kathy … I’m blogging through a book on handling anger over at my place. Anger and courage … yes.

Hope you have a great time!

]]> By: » Random Acts of Linkage #117 ::: Subversive Influence http://kathyescobar.com/2009/06/19/hopes-two-beautiful-daughters/#comment-2520 » Random Acts of Linkage #117 ::: Subversive Influence Sat, 20 Jun 2009 13:38:55 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2102#comment-2520 [...] Kathy Escobar on St. Augustine, hope’s two beautiful daughters [...] [...] Kathy Escobar on St. Augustine, hope’s two beautiful daughters [...]

]]> By: Ferg http://kathyescobar.com/2009/06/19/hopes-two-beautiful-daughters/#comment-2519 Ferg Sat, 20 Jun 2009 08:30:31 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2102#comment-2519 Great post. I think the church has done huge damage in subtly and also in some more obvious ways telling us to suppress our emotions. "We must not let our emotions come in to our worship" "We must always know that God is in control so therefore can thank him when we are suffering as he is teaching us a lesson" "God himself has no emotions (Westminster Confession of Faith Section 1 Part 6), if he did it would deny his impassibility and would therefore insinuate change on his behalf; any times it speaks of emotions in scripture it is anthropomorphic, etc etc etc...." Where has the picture gone of a passionate God who is jealous for us and has chased after us to bring us into the great trinitarian dance? Anger is such a valid emotion and one that God used so often to show his pain at his people constantly turning from him. Yet what did he do? It was as if this anger poured more fuel on his outrageous plan to step into our darkness to show us, truly exactly what he thinks of us. He loves us. He has hope for us. Hope that none will perish, he is so passionate for humanity that he doesn't even delight when the wicked die. He knows that we are all created in his image and all have unsurpassable worth (because of Him, not us) as all were worth his Son dying for and for some reason he chooses to work with us to bring his HOPE to the people around us. I remember talking to my Dad about the death of my brother (he was 6 months old and older than me so I won't meet him till I get to heaven) and he said his anger at the situation fueled his desire to know more of God's character. He would not settle for cliche Christian answers of God's hidden will and 'you'll see someday that this was for good'. He knew that there was something more of God to be revealed than that and he wanted to know if his Father in heaven could truly be trusted. His anger didn't just turn to hope, but it found hope as hope is a person and that person is Jesus and he pointed the way to his Father. I'm so glad that we won't get to heaven and have to apologise for overestimating God's goodness and grace. Great post. I think the church has done huge damage in subtly and also in some more obvious ways telling us to suppress our emotions.
“We must not let our emotions come in to our worship”
“We must always know that God is in control so therefore can thank him when we are suffering as he is teaching us a lesson”
“God himself has no emotions (Westminster Confession of Faith Section 1 Part 6), if he did it would deny his impassibility and would therefore insinuate change on his behalf; any times it speaks of emotions in scripture it is anthropomorphic, etc etc etc….”

Where has the picture gone of a passionate God who is jealous for us and has chased after us to bring us into the great trinitarian dance? Anger is such a valid emotion and one that God used so often to show his pain at his people constantly turning from him. Yet what did he do? It was as if this anger poured more fuel on his outrageous plan to step into our darkness to show us, truly exactly what he thinks of us. He loves us. He has hope for us. Hope that none will perish, he is so passionate for humanity that he doesn’t even delight when the wicked die. He knows that we are all created in his image and all have unsurpassable worth (because of Him, not us) as all were worth his Son dying for and for some reason he chooses to work with us to bring his HOPE to the people around us.

I remember talking to my Dad about the death of my brother (he was 6 months old and older than me so I won’t meet him till I get to heaven) and he said his anger at the situation fueled his desire to know more of God’s character. He would not settle for cliche Christian answers of God’s hidden will and ‘you’ll see someday that this was for good’. He knew that there was something more of God to be revealed than that and he wanted to know if his Father in heaven could truly be trusted.
His anger didn’t just turn to hope, but it found hope as hope is a person and that person is Jesus and he pointed the way to his Father.

I’m so glad that we won’t get to heaven and have to apologise for overestimating God’s goodness and grace.

]]> By: Tom Wilson http://kathyescobar.com/2009/06/19/hopes-two-beautiful-daughters/#comment-2517 Tom Wilson Sat, 20 Jun 2009 01:46:05 +0000 http://kathyescobar.com/?p=2102#comment-2517 Well kathy I think I can say that when in comes to the church (that word) I think you and I are angry and many of the same things. Someone recently told me that they had the impression that I just hate churches and Christians. The truth is I'm passionately in love with both and it is why I say and write the things I do. However I believe that church as has been practiced for about 1500 years is broken, because it is not the Church Christ is building. However I do hate religion and dead traditions and lists of does and don'ts... And as I said in my blog and on Facebook some time ago I believe Institutional Church + Religion = a high maintenance obligation management vehicle powered by a high octane blend of shame and fear! Tom Well kathy I think I can say that when in comes to the church (that word) I think you and I are angry and many of the same things.

Someone recently told me that they had the impression that I just hate churches and Christians.

The truth is I’m passionately in love with both and it is why I say and write the things I do. However I believe that church as has been practiced for about 1500 years is broken, because it is not the Church Christ is building.

However I do hate religion and dead traditions and lists of does and don’ts… And as I said in my blog and on Facebook some time ago I believe Institutional Church + Religion = a high maintenance obligation management vehicle powered by a high octane blend of shame and fear!

Tom

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